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| Author: | Robbie O'Brien [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 2:20 am ] |
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I had a Martin copy of a Humphrey classical come into the shop with an interesting tuning problem. The first string is tuned to an open E. You can then play an E chord in tune. When you play a D chord the first string is out of tune. You can then tune the first string so that the D chord is in tune and everything is fine. You can play up the neck with no intonation problems at all. Once you want to play an open chord however it goes back out of tune. You have to tune the thing to either play open our fretted and it is only on the first string. Any suggestions? |
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| Author: | Dave-SKG [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 4:22 am ] |
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Just a thought...perhaps the first string slot is not leading the string off the very edge ( of the nut) but somewhere in the middle. I see a lot of nuts that aren't back filed properly resulting in tunning problems. I have also seen where the nut it self is not lying equidistant from the first fret when measured on treble and bass side ( it's actually at an angle...poor work). I use calipers, to the thousandths, to measure. Please let me know what it turns out to be. |
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| Author: | Colin S [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 8:09 pm ] |
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I agree with Dave sounds like a problem with the break point on the nut. I had the same problem with my first build and it took me ages to work it out it was purely bad workmanship (What me!). Take the string off (try a new one before getting the file out) and see where the peak is. Colin |
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| Author: | Don Williams [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 10:25 pm ] |
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You didn't say whether it was sharp or flat... |
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| Author: | csullivan [ Sun Oct 23, 2005 11:41 pm ] |
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Don's right, you need to tell us whether it's sharp or flat. The fix for one is not necessarily the fix for the other. When you tune so that all strings are correct, and then you play the D chord, is the E string (1st string) sharp or flat? Craig |
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| Author: | Robbie O'Brien [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 1:26 am ] |
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The string is going sharp guys. |
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| Author: | John How [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 2:27 am ] |
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If the tuning is fine with the strings fretted then the problem must be the nut huh. what thise guys said  How is the nut action?
If the string is going sharp when you fret it, that would indicate that it is too long at the nut end (causing the tension needed to be higher) when tuned open. |
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| Author: | csullivan [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 3:34 am ] |
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Bear with me here guy -- this is a chance to really show my ignorance! But I want to try to establish some thread of logic in my own head. If all the open strings are in tune and you fret an E chord, it sounds fine. If you fret a D chord (which means all three top strings are fretted), only the E string sounds sharp. If, as was suggested, the string isn't breaking at the very leading edge of the nut, I would agree that the fretted E string would sound sharp. If that turns out to not be the case, might that not suggest there is not enough compensation at the saddle? Craig |
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| Author: | John How [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:39 am ] |
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Possibly however I kinda would have expected it to go further out of tune as playing moved up the neck if it were a saddle issue but Robbie says it intonates fine up the neck. |
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| Author: | Robbie O'Brien [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:48 am ] |
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[QUOTE=John How] Possibly however I kinda would have expected it to go further out of tune as playing moved up the neck if it were a saddle issue but Robbie says it intonates fine up the neck.[/QUOTE] That's right John, if you tune the first string to play a D chord in tune then it frets up the neck fine and everything is in tune. When you go back and play an E chord then the open E first string is out of tune. I can then tune the first string so that the open E is in tune but then when I play fretted up the neck everything on the first string is sharp. |
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| Author: | Robbie O'Brien [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 4:50 am ] |
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seems to me I came across an article on the web a while back about nut end compensation. Does anyone know the link to this? I think this will solve my problem. |
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| Author: | Dave-SKG [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 5:56 am ] |
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I hate to sound redundent but if the nut slot itself is not equi-distant (ie. it's crooked)from the first fret you would have a similar problem. Your open e is affected but not the fretted notes. Did you check it?  |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 6:14 am ] |
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[QUOTE=csullivan] Bear with me here guy -- this is a chance to really show my ignorance! But I want to try to establish some thread of logic in my own head. If all the open strings are in tune and you fret an E chord, it sounds fine. If you fret a D chord (which means all three top strings are fretted) Craig[/QUOTE] I am having a brain fart here but an opend D major triad chord in std tuning (1stg/2nd fret 2stg/3rd fret 3stg/2nd fret) none of the top strings are fretted unless played in barr form, Unless by top you mean higher pitched. |
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| Author: | Mike Mahar [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:04 am ] |
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This problem comes up all the time when you teach guitar. The strings that are higher in pitch are lower on the guitar when in normal playing position. The low E string is higher than all the other strings in that it is further from the ground. Almost all musicians use higher and lower to refer to pitch. Top and bottom strings are used less often and I don't think there is a standard definition for them. My gut reaction is to think of the top E as the low E (Pitch) but I almost never use the term. |
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| Author: | Michael Dale Payne [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 8:09 am ] |
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That is what I assumed. What through me was the use of top vs. higher or upper. |
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| Author: | JBreault [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:48 am ] |
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Just a thought...We could probably avoid the name problem if we used a letter and numbering system. For example, e1, b2, g3, etc. This would correspond to how the strings are referenced in sheet music and could translate well for alternate tunings. |
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| Author: | Robbie O'Brien [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:31 am ] |
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The first string to me is the High E string and the 6th string is the low E. They are numbered 1 to 6 from the high E to the low E. |
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| Author: | Robbie O'Brien [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 10:39 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Dave-SKG] I hate to sound redundent but if the nut slot itself is not equi-distant (ie. it's crooked)from the first fret you would have a similar problem. Your open e is affected but not the fretted notes. Did you check it? [/QUOTE]
Dave the nut seems to be in the correct position. This is why this thing is stumping me. I am going to have to hunt down the problem some how and my gut tells me it is on the nut end. |
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| Author: | RussellR [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:07 pm ] |
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Robbie I had a problem on a repair I did recently, not sure if this is any help but what I found was that the nut though correctly filed, had been positioned to far back (the end had not been cut square. In my case the measurement from nut to first fret was wrong, what I did was work out the scale and measure, then to be sure made a piece of credit card to fit in front of the nut and kept thinning it down and testing i then marked the correct line, removed the nut and worked it to the line. Maybe this is of some help |
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| Author: | Brazilwood [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 12:39 pm ] |
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Robbie...one other thing to look at is the first fret itself. Is there a lot of wear..grooved, or flat on top. ? Check the fret crown. I'ts possible the crown is off center or non exhistant. Just a thought if the nut isn't the problem. |
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| Author: | Dave White [ Mon Oct 24, 2005 9:37 pm ] |
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Robbie, Is this the one Nut Compensation |
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| Author: | Robbie O'Brien [ Tue Oct 25, 2005 1:18 am ] |
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[QUOTE=Dave White] Robbie, Is this the one Nut Compensation[/QUOTE] That's the one!! Thanks |
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| Author: | Dave White [ Tue Oct 25, 2005 3:43 am ] |
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Robbie, What happens if you put a capo at the first fret, tune up and then play the E chord and D chord? Like Russell, I suspect that the distance from fingerboard end (or where the string is sittimg at the end of the nut) to the first fret is too long. You can also test this (as per Stephen Delft's article) by putting some thin slivers of bone of increasing thickness in front of the nut on the first string and seeing if you can find a length that gives the open string tuning and fretted notes in tune up the neck. Happy hunting. |
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